張忍問
一位弟兄
五歲受洗之後，因為父母工作的關係開始沒有來聚會，
父親是家族信仰、母親跟著那位弟兄同時間受洗。
父親雖然是家族信仰，但是聖經上很多的教訓沒有深入，
所以也沒有跟自己的孩子(包含那位弟兄)談論聖經上的教訓。
那位弟兄在十三歲(距離今天十二年前)的時候，
跟當時的交往對象發生了關係，
十四歲就跟交往的對象分手。
(交往的對象是外邦人)
那位弟兄在十八歲之後，自己一個人去找自家附近的教會聚會，
聚會一段時間之後，那位弟兄才知道自己十三歲那時候做的蠢事是罪。
現在那位弟兄二十五歲，是否因為不能再跟其他姊妹結婚而必須單身一輩
安安回應：
好難回答的問題
問傳道吧!
浪子回應：
若完全無知而犯,罪在其父母或教會的教導者.
趕快回家,認真把基本道理搞清楚,謙卑悔改.
對象的事再說,先把基礎弄對了,其它依靠神,自有出路.難道不能嫁娶就不要永生了?先築壇,其它的自然會明白.
火回應：
可以和與他(發生了關係)者結婚
因和與他(發生了關係)者夫妻關係存在
再與他人結錉就是姦淫
所以絶不能再跟其他姊妹結婚
張忍回應：
補充
那位弟兄在十四歲的時候，會跟對方分手是因為那位弟兄搬家的原故，搬家也轉學。
那時候兩個人都還是國中生，而且那時候不是每位學生都有手機，
所以分手之後也沒有再連絡。
那位弟兄後來也有再回去找她，可惜去的時候房子已經拆除蓋了新房，因為當時的房子是老舊眷村。
分手之後到今天已經有11年。
火回應：
錯在那位弟兄不該在十三歲(距離今天十二年前)的時候，就跟當時的交往對象發生了關係。
不必再找理由。
浪子回應：
錯了就是錯了.
要追求在對的事情上更完全,神的案卷詳盡異常,祂的審判極其公義,絕對公平,無話可說,而同時,祂的憐憫如天高如海深,這帳到底怎麼算?怎麼拿捏? 全都在祂,不在人.
故只要靠著聖靈,追求公義良善,一心追趕,明天如何尚不可知,何況審判之日呢? 先求神的國和神的義,這一切須用的都會加給你們,不需要傷神自己想出路.什麼先,什麼後?這就是信心.
Amos回應：
弟兄講的只是忠實傳達神的律例典章,什麼情況應該如何,神的國都有章法,傳達出來是因為你們問,既知道了,就看你要不要遵守,講的人不是在定你的罪,是使弟兄明白神的定旨.定罪赦罪只有神,但人人不可以使神的律法隱晦,憑己意,感覺自己亂講.
民可以選擇遵守或不遵守,但弟兄不可以自己改了神的話.就像古時先知傳神的律法,都是會得罪人的,但他也不敢因為怕以色列人殺他就改了神的話.你可以定弟兄的罪,但正確的律法還是得顯明出來.
正確傳達神的旨意人人有責,遵不遵守就是個人意願,信不信的下去就是個人的信心.
罵先知沒愛心,甚至殺他叫他閉嘴,從古到今很多,耶穌也是其中之一.
不是綿羊回應：
13歲才國中一年級,就是不信的外邦人也知道這年紀就發生關係不對吧.
家族家長有罪了,但小少男也有良心的攔阻吧.即使沒有律法的外邦人,神也給他們良心的作用,並以此審判他們.所以,不要因為覺得家長沒有好好宗教教育而忽略了自己仍應向神悔改.
但以理自小分別為聖,遵守律法,但他被民族的罪牽連,擄到巴比倫,他在禱告中完全沒有怪犯罪的祖先和國君人民,而是替他們和自己認罪求神的憐憫(其實但以理哪裡有什麼罪).他後來蒙神祝福位高權重,一旦面臨違背道理的事,立刻完全放棄好生活好地位,死就死,也不違背道理.
浪子 回應：
從歷史上看選民的信仰路.有先好後壞的,也有先壞後好的,有從頭至尾壞到底的,也有從頭至尾沒什麼大錯而蒙神喜悅的.
個人如掃羅王,所羅門王,家族如以法蓮支派,是先好後壞的典型.這三者靈命都死了,神沒有說原諒他們.
先壞後好的典型,有瑪拿西王,壞事幹盡,神用巴比倫王來刑罰他,被擄受凌辱多年,謙卑了,悔悟了,神還讓他從巴比倫跨越幾千公里回到野路撒冷,再做王,善終,但按律法不潔淨,一樣照規矩不得入祖先知墳地.但就靈命說,是蒙神接納的.
壞到底的就不提了,肉身,靈命皆無望.下陰間等著審判後去火湖了.少年就負軛,好到底的如亞伯拉罕,但以理,這中間他們都是經過大測試的.不是神特別給他什麼好資質,是他們"專心"跟從,練就了強健的靈性,事實證明他們也通過神的試驗而蒙悅納,蒙福更多.
信耶穌,藉著中保歸屬神,目標就是天上的家鄉.如果沒有進到看神的道理大過自己,很難竟全功的.因為絕對過不了試煉.因為會怕.這也怕,那也怕.就會照著世人的經驗去處理試煉,這就過不了,過不了試煉的絕對沒法成精金,"金"是指屬靈的,精金就是屬靈生命的完全.
一直強調一定要敬虔,足夠的靈言禱告.只有這樣常常去行,人的本質材才會被改變,改變成視神的話大過一切,連自己都看不見了,只有基督.這樣試煉才可能過的了,才能真與亞伯拉罕有相同的經歷,而才有相同的"因信稱義"的生命.屬靈的福氣才會澆灌下來.亞伯拉罕與但以理都不是天之嬌子,天生蒙福,是他們看神的吩咐"勝過"自己,之後不但有屬地的福氣,神明明說更有屬靈的大福氣,等將來睡起要享受永福.
凡為我喪掉生命(原文是魂)的,必得著魂;凡要救自己魂的,必喪掉魂.魂就是人的舊經驗,舊觀念,想妥協.而這就不是"信",雖有"相信"的開始,卻沒有"信靠"的實質.就是那先好後壞的典型.這種例子太多了.聖經為何既這麼多? 鑑誡啊!
不能做但以理,起碼神還留下瑪拿西的例子,以前怎樣就已經發生了,還有一口氣就是神還給機會,什麼時候悔悟了,甚麼時候謙卑了,神就使他漸入佳境,肉體的福氣不算什麼,更大的是屬靈的恩賞.往前看,一心追趕,趁著還有今日.
張忍回應：
我看
大家的眼前沒有憐憫，只有自私。
我的問題是那位弟兄能不能夠結婚，反倒大家卻一昧的指責他。
這樣的行為已經不符合聖經，就是定別人的罪。
"那位弟兄在十八歲之後，自己一個人去找自家附近的教會聚會，聚會一段時間之後，那位弟兄才知道自己十三歲那時候做的蠢事是罪。"
那位弟兄在十八歲的時候，就得到了聖靈。
那位弟兄也知道得到了聖靈並不代表自己的罪已經得著赦免。
※請大家把問題放在婚姻上面
浪子 回應：
照您的觀念,以賽亞,耶立米,何西阿等等先知,都沒有憐憫.他們都是論斷人,定以色列人罪的.
前面講的很清楚,弟兄只是"告知"律例典章,律例典章是神定的,不是弟兄定的.發生這種事,照神的律法該怎樣做,聽到的人要不要遵行是個人的決定.你若決定遵行,並不是遵行這些弟兄的意思,而是遵行神的話,跟弟兄有甚麼關係;你不遵行,是不遵行神的話,弟兄只是把知道的律法"傳達",怎麼好像是弟兄挾制你?挾制你的是罪,罪把你自己陷在律法裡,產生極多的困擾,並不是弟兄挾制你,而律法是神藉天使經中保頒布的,你不敢怪罪"頒布"律法的神,只好怪罪"傳達"律法的弟兄了.
犯罪這種事就是這麼麻煩,該怎麼贖罪,可以怎麼做,不可以怎麼做,神都定的清清楚楚.犯罪後如果還要救恩,面對律例典章本來就很累人,極困擾,代價大,所以神才要祭司先知負起責任呼籲大家謹慎自守,最好別碰紅線.
難道弟兄應該回應你-"可以嫁娶主內的姐妹",這樣回答才算有憐憫,有愛心了嗎?這樣的話,那位姐妹算不算犯姦淫?你直接去問長老吧.我們只是沒有憐憫,沒有愛心的弟兄.
如此看起來是不行的。
但是小弟也有一個問題，他犯罪時年紀小又有悔改，且又得到聖靈，還繼續在教會裡，萬一有姐妹喜歡他，嫁給他的問題比較嚴重，或是嫁給外邦比較嚴重？
當然可以，有人要嫁給你，你就可以結婚，所以不要在教會或這裡問：「可以再娶嗎？」因為答案都會因人而異，應該去問那位姊妹，「我可以娶妳嗎？」如果她不點頭，我們有一百個人說「可以」，有什麼用是不是？只是對象如果是主內的姊妹，你必須誠實的告訴她，你曾經犯下的錯，只要她願意接納你，在你內心也確實的向主認罪悔改，相信憐憫人的主會赦免的。
另外，這種事千萬別儍儍的跑去問傳道，
「當同你所愛的妻快活度日，因為那是你生前在日光之下，
願天下有情人終成眷屬，忘記背後努力面前，從此過敬虔的日子，
贊成bwnj
只要悔改後內心已經坦然.兩人都願意對神負責.就可以吧！否則他去娶外邦人.會更好嗎？
什麼是死罪，以致耶穌的寶血不能再洗淨他們的罪，神的氣息也無法使枯骨復活！
打從心底徹底否定耶穌不悔改，不行愛心與憐憫，驕傲說謊至死不改，與褻瀆聖靈者！
耶穌就直起腰來對他說：「...............耶穌說，我也不定你的罪，去罷，從此不要再犯
罪了。」－－這句話晝夜思想，刻印心版，真是會令人淚從心流，深感神愛有破穹蒼貫
日月之無限能力！
神對罪人最完整，最崇高，最大犧牲愛的訴說就是以－－－何西阿的婚姻來展示！
在耶羅波安的極盛時代，富裕的盛世中有許多偶像充斥，道德低落，窮人受欺壓，許多
不法的事。人們在婚姻方面不忠貞，不在耶和華面前信守聖約，但是神仍愛他們，有如
丈夫深愛著妻子不離不棄，但是在人看來－－以色列卻完全不值得被愛，因為她自甘墮
落。但是身為丈夫的耶和華仍不放棄她，繼續愛她，希望她們歸向神，好似神對以色列
人恒久的愛一樣。
我們與神的關係似乎也是這樣。祂愛我們，不是因為我們聖潔可愛，我們的情形正相反
，這是神所知道的，雖然祂給我們一切的福分，可惜我們沒有珍惜，我們常常離棄祂，
背叛不忠，最後祂不得已任憑我們，但在神的心中仍願意顯明憐憫恩慈，倘若我們若肯
悔改歸向神，祂就會對我們說：阿米——我的民，路哈瑪——你們必蒙憐憫。
執子之手，與子偕老：
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjQwNzMzNjgw.html
頌讚我主！願一切的榮耀完全歸與以色列的聖者直到永永遠遠！
Michael Gabriel
我同意H appy、bwnj的说法，曾今何时我将自己当做那个淫妇，当主向我说我不定你的罪，起来去吧，以后别犯了，我的眼眶里全是泪，我真的很感动，我暗暗地说主啊，对不起，我错了，求你原谅，我不会再犯了，求你相信我。当时的那个心情相信只有那个淫妇知道。
现在的教会只有规条，太过严厉，除名圣经里记载了吗？只有赶出啊！赶出给了别人机会，他可以再回来；可是除名等于就是将他与神完全的隔绝开了，而且是人为的。太可怕了！
神说他是爱，他是神，是末后的审判者，不是人，而且他喜爱怜悯胜于献祭，否则我们这些人造就下去了，包括自以为义 的。为什么我们不能拿出我们的爱心去关怀他、帮助他、劝勉他继续留在教会里，说不定神。。。。。。！我们不要代替神就行了。
被除名的人.仍可來聚會，教會還是會勸他向神悔改，但在教會要低調一些，要謙卑，因為不知道主是否赦免。以往教會的除名也有誤判的，目前台灣教會趨向保守，好像若會影響其它信徒，才會除名，例如職務人員犯姦淫，到處騙錢且被法院判刑確定的....
我們教會曾出現被除名兩次的烏龍事件，她因騙台灣很多教會信徒的錢，又被判刑確定，所以被除名，但不久後負責人發現她之前已因姦淫被除名過。她現在又在教會聚會，我們也跟她點頭示意，但還是要注意她接觸慕道者或新信徒，不能再發生騙錢事件！
您說除名是將他與神隔絕是錯的，只有罪才會使人和神隔絕，所以保羅也希望犯姦淫的人要悔改（林後12：21），但沒有說是否會被主赦免。總之，得救是個人和神之間的關係，悔改是所有犯罪的惟一解藥！
happy,
您可知道tjc的除名理论基础就是“在地上捆绑，在天上也捆绑；在地上释放，在天上也释放”，是先地上后天上。天上的神必须尊重地上的除名决议。按照“顺服原则”，除名错了也得尊重，信徒不该质疑，神也得尊重。神哪天起意要原谅那个犯罪被除名的人，一定得先通过异象异梦或者直接说话知会相关负责人，让地上“先释放”，他才好释放。
您的发言不可不慎啊！我是觉得您也在攻击除名制度，小心杨XX就是镜子！
Happy
你说的情况是台湾，而我说的是大陆，你对大陆有多少了解？我们这里有不少的信徒或传道被除名，原因有不服从长执会或乱扣帽子的，有因真的出现问题的，但教会没劝勉、帮助或什么，当事人完全离开教会而进入邪教组织，教会事后也没有任何的说辞，这对吗？
他们都是除名而永远离开了，你或许会说哪天神会动工的，我也信，但在他们离开时，他们还带走了许多的信徒，这些人也有进邪教组织的，他们的以后怎么办？要知道爱心不只是我们教会有，有的派别爱心大的让你不敢想象。
唉！求神怜悯。
哥林多前書 5.11：「但如今我寫信給你們說，若有稱為弟兄是行淫亂的，或貪婪的，或拜偶像的，或辱罵的，或醉酒的，或勒索的，這樣的人不可與他相交，就是與他吃飯都不可。
Lch
The Warning of the Unfruitful Trees and their Outcomes
On September 24, 2012, in a morning prayer at dawn, a member was praying for a terminally ill and suffering brother. God responded to her prayer and said, "This person is an unfruitful tree that is taking up space."
That evening, she attended the church service. Before concluding prayer, the service leader announced and asked everyone to pray for the names of those members who were suffering greatly from diseases and accidents. Then she proceeded to pray for all those who were on the prayer request list. However, in the midst of prayer, God inspired her, "These people are all unfruitful trees taking up space. I want you all to see the end result of these members who are unfruitful trees that are taking up space uselessly. This is a warning to remind you to be alert and watchful."
On the early morning of September 28, 2012, a member was praying for other members who are suffering from tribulations. God said, "The spouse of that person is also an unfruitful tree that is wasting space."
On the early morning prayer of May 6, 2011, God spoke, "Do not be like worthless unfruitful tree that takes up useless space; otherwise, God will take away your life." (Confer Mt 21:18-20; Mk 11:12-14,20-21; Luke 13:6-9 ).
The Lord Jesus says, "I am the True Vine and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit." (John 15:1-2 )
The Lord Jesus says, "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6 )
In 1997, there was the case of a member who just committed a serious sin. She was rebuked by God, "You have committed a deadly sin. In the future, you will have to pay a terrible price!”
Some years ago, there was a member who committed adultery.Then he became very ill. Church members came to pray for him, especially when he finally fell to unconsciousness.
On the last day, all of a sudden, the brother awoke. With unnatural strength, he jumped out of his bed, grabbed tightly onto the house wall with both arms, and then started to climb. As he is climbing, he frightfully cried, "I do NOT want to be here! It's too burning hot! There's fire everywhere! I don't want to be here anymore!"
Though the man screamed and climbed with all his might, he was unable to climb the smooth surface of the house wall. He will climb, then fall; climb, then fall. This happened over and over again. But he would not give up. He continued to climb.
Finally, he climbed one last time and then fell dead on the ground. When he fell, he screamed loudly with anguish. His cry sounded like a drawn out long pitiful scream, like the wailing of someone falling into a deep chasm, tapering off and fading away. It sounded so frightening to all the members there.
Once there was a member who saw a vision while attending a young sister's funeral. When the casket was being let down into the grave, she suddenly saw a vision of surging fire coming out of the burial pit to receive the casket. It was so horrible!
She immediately had this message from the Lord—this is where the dead will go, a place of fire and brimstone. She did not understand why. So she later prayed to God, “Why would that young sister be condemned? She was baptized since she was young in the True Jesus Church. Yet it looked like she was being subjected to an even worse punishment than the non-believers."
The Lord Jesus answered, "She did not cry to God for help." Why didn’t this person cry to God for help when she had trouble? If she had been baptized since she was young, wouldn’t she have known to cry to God saying, "Hallelujah! Lord, save me!"
Jesus said, "She did not cry for help," and he meant that this person did not pray to God for help, did not attend services, did not read the Bible, did not practice spiritual cultivation, did not serve God, did not keep the word of God, did not keep holy, did not live a godly life, did not live a life in accordance to God's will. Therefore, during the time of crisis, though she cried hard to God, God will not pay any attention to her. There was no way to help her.
There was once a funeral for a member which was conducted on October 27, 2006. Before the hymnal presentation, the nephew of the deceased read the final words of the deceased to everyone. These were the final words of his uncle, who continued to pray and repent to God, but God no longer listened to any of his prayers. So the uncle often wept and lamented his sad fate to his nephew, who wrote down his final words.
I do not have any road left to walk. I want to fly, but I have no wings. I want to walk, but no road is left. Miserable am I!
In the dark of the night, My cries flow unceasingly. My tears never cease; My bitterness knows no end.
I have committed a great sin! My prayers can no longer reach God. Though I keep praying, God will not hear.
May the Lord grant my final wish. May my children and grandchildren
Forever guard the word of God in their lives, To obey, to follow, and never to violate,
To never depart from His righteounessness and live forever in His presence.
How sad and remorseful are these final words! This is the voice of one who has committed a great sin against God, who has departed from the living God, who is now facing death and final judgment.
"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:11-15 NKJV)
頁面